Now watch closely, everyone. I’m going to show you how to kill a god. A god of life and death. The trick is not to fear him.
– Lady Eboshi, “Princess Mononoke”
A common and compelling trope in anime is of characters challenging God. In Princess Mononoke, for instance, Lady Eboshi attempts to literally kill a god. And though more of the variety of the countless kami, the god she intends to kill is the Forest Spirit, who could represent a supreme God. In other series, like the more controversial Angel Sanctuary and Neon Genesis Evangelion, the killing of God is more directly aimed at one God and often the Christian one.
The irony is this – while these fictional characters risk everything in an attempt to kill God, the act has already been done. And it’s been accomplished by God himself.
Humans call out for blood–“Crucify! Crucify!”–and God hands Jesus over to appease us. The significance of this reversal cannot be overstated. In Christianity God is handed over to humans in an act of sacrifice. In Christianity God is killed. God isn’t demanding the sacrifice. God is the sacrifice.
– Richard Beck, “Algorithms of Salvation“
Sacrificial love is part of the beauty of the Christian faith. Some 2,000 years ago, God died so we could live. In a moment in time, the Almighty God of the universe allowed Himself to be beaten and crucified by his own dirty creation so that we could reestablish relationship with Him.
It’s a story of redemption. Of grace. Of love.
It’s a story as epic as any, and one that makes some of these anime character who rage against the heavens seem…a little misguided.
There’s no need to try to kill God. As Jesus said on the cross – “It [and so much more] is done.”
“Christianity is the only religion on earth that has felt that omnipotence ( being all powerful) made God incomplete. Christianity alone has felt that God, to be wholly God, must have been a rebel as well as a king. Alone of all creeds, Christianity has added courage to the virtues of the Creator. For the only courage worth calling courage must necessarily mean that the soul passes a breaking point–and does not break………….in that terrific tale of the Passion there is a distinct emotional suggestion that the author of all things (in some unthinkable way) went not only through agony, but through doubt. It is written, “Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.” No; but the Lord thy God may tempt Himself; and it seems as if this was what happened in Gethsemane. In a garden Satan tempted man: and in a garden God tempted God. He passed in some superhuman manner through our human horror of pessimism. When the world shook and the sun was wiped out of heaven, it was not at the crucifixion, but at the cry from the cross: the cry which confessed that God was forsaken of God. And now let the revolutionists choose a creed from all the creeds and a god from all the gods of the world, carefully weighing all the gods… They will not find another god who has himself been in revolt. (the matter grows too difficult for human speech,) but let the atheists themselves choose a god. They will find only one divinity who ever uttered their isolation; only one religion in which God seemed for an instant to be an atheist.”— G.K. Chesterton.
Thanks for the quote…Chesterton is always interesting. I had to read the quote very slowly. 😛
Honestly I was worried I would squelch comments or start a flame war…. I just find it interesting that Chesterton pretty much said that God forsook himself, the Trinitarian structure of God at the crucifixion is astounding.
No, it was a great addition to the conversation! Theologically, I disagree with some of what Chesterton says here, but certainly I believe we should be open when approaching anything.
Also, yes, it’s amazing to consider the Trinity in regards to crucifixion. That perfect relationship and what was happening within is the subject of much debate, simply because of the complexities and mystery. Very interesting and powerful stuff that I honestly have trouble getting my head around.
Glad to see you’re enjoying that blog as much as I am. 🙂
Oh I am LOVING it. I’m so glad you referred me to the blog.
Well sure, Jesus died per the New Testament. And yet, God’s still around since God has two more aspects. As such, to those characters seeking to destroy the heavens and vanquish the gods, killing Jesus probably wouldn’t satisfy them much. After all, he was there specifically TO die. They’re shooting for the hat trick, and THAT is no small task.
The desire to kill a god, including the Abrahamic God, is born out of the idea that these entities represent omnipotence. Therefore, to slay them is to surpass the power of infinity, or alternatively to attain it and perhaps become God in the process, thus answering the question “could God make someone so badass they could beat God up?” What those fictional characters are risking is more along the lines of killing the God of the Old Testament at the peak of the fire and brimstone, the one who killed an awful lot of people. He’s got the top spot on the kill board. By comparison, the frag count and kill:death ratio of Jesus Christ isn’t nearly as impressive.
In anime, the characters who seek to do such a thing are typically shown to harbor this sentiment as an expression of their inner strength and general independence/self-reliance. In our media, such sentiments are generally held by people out of a specific hatred of God. In either instance, the knowledge that Jesus died to grant one’s salvation would be of no use to them because you don’t need God to forgive you if you knock him off the top of the mountain.
Well, if you’re going to do a seriously analysis of anime characters trying to kill “God,” then sure… 😛
When a character tries to “kill God” (usually the Abrahamic God), he or she is indeed trying to attain that ultimate power, to usurp God as the ultimate being in the universe; however, what’s unique about the NT is that, ironically, God in the person of Christ readily accepts this death and becomes the weakest of the weak. One point I’m trying to convey is that this is an unexpected juxtaposition of God imagined as a conqueror (which, for instance, is how the barbaric tribes pictured Jesus as they swept into the Roman Empire) versus the loving redemption of a humble God who died a painful and cursed death. Characters attempt to kill a God that exhibits one facet without having “correct” soteriology and understanding other facets of God.
Well, I guess a little imbalance is to be expected in a character whose goal is to kill God. 😉
By the way, coincidentally, earlier today I read your piece on the new Lupin the Third series and really enjoyed it.
I’d say there are two main branches to this trope: One is when the one attempting to kill “god” is a bad person (a villain or an antagonist) and the other when the ones doing the killing are the heroes.
In the first case, the main motivation is the one mentioned by TWWK above: either to usurp God’s power or dominion or to prove oneself possessor of ultimate power. In this case, the concept of godhood is a pagan one, in which gods are but ultra powerful beings but otherwise ridden with the same physicality, character flaws and/or mortality of lesser beings, as seen for example in Greek mythology.
In the second case, though, “god” is presented as an unjust and ultimately inhuman being (see for example NGE or Angel Beats!) who entrenched in his aloof wisdom and power cannot possibly understand the nuances of emotion, the beauty of fragility or the wealth of diversity found in imperfection. This is a clearly old-testamentarian God, as seen through the eyes of someone detached from the system of belief and presents us the compelling conundrum of an ultimate, perfect being that by creating lesser, imperfect creatures to rule over gives them the moral right to rebel against him for the sake of their own humanity.
As blasphemous as the second case might seem, I find it more relevant to reality as portrays the subconscious struggle of the people who reject God and the infinite love of God that understood that giving true free will to humanity implied giving them the chance and the ability to subjectively rationalize a world where He was a rejectable proposition.
Thanks for your words of wisdom. I agree with your conclusion about the second case – it’s perhaps less impressive when put to story than the first (though certainly Evangelion is an amazing series!), but it’s more realistic and more applicable.
[…] among many things. In Princess Mononoke, Eboshi and her host did not have much difficulty in killing the Deer God. But the aftermath of that event left lots of men dead, the survivors homeless and the land […]
Atheists are smarter than most religious people give us credit. We know where god actually exists. It’s in the mind of the believer. We know enough not to wage war on the idea of god in the physical world. Men have tried wiping out the believer before and often it has the exact opposite effect—strengthening their resolve by rallying the church around the prophecy of persecution and the ideal of martyrdom (it’s also not very nice =P ). The true way to “kill” a god is on the battlefield of knowledge. If the believer is truly listening, it’s my opinion that eventually the god in their mind will crumple under the weight of reason as it did for me.
Yeah, I dunno – from my personal experience, I think that Christians, at least in this country, may give atheists more credit than they’re due. As reflected in Christian books and other media, there seems to be this assumption that most atheists are simply smarter than most Christians and we’re trying to play catch up and defend ourselves. But as there are many Christians who don’t know why they believe or even WHAT they believe, there are many atheists who can’t explain why he or she DOESN’T believe or why one shouldn’t.
Also, I definitely disagree with your opinion (“It’s my opinion that eventually the god in their mind will crumple under the weight of reason as it did for me”). You’re coloring a billion people as those who cannot listen to reason. We’re not all ignorant, nor all we all close-minded. There are millions of us who’ve listened to and “get” the arguments against the existence of a higher power or spiritual realm (and specifically Christianity), logically, scientifically, sociologically, etc., but are undeterred, not because we’re unwilling to let go of a crutch, but because our minds and souls (which we believe exist) compel us to the message, which we believe to be true. I think you’re impressing a stereotype on believers as unwilling to question our belief – that may be true for many, but not all, and especially, I think, not for the many young believers today who are challenging not only the culture, but the long-held notions held by their own churches.
But back to the post. Here’s the thing…it was never about atheism. It was about characters that believed in God, but chose to rebel against. And really, it wasn’t even about that – this was only a starting point to explain the Christian idea of God offering Himself as a sacrifice.
My comment was merely meant to highlight the atheist perspective on how we typically think of killing god as compared to fiction. Sorry if I didn’t make that clear.
But speaking for myself, as disturbing as I know this may sound to some people, if someone was able to prove that god existed I would not suddenly repent and begin a life of worship. I’m no hypocrite and I fully respect the lifestyle that I’ve been keeping for the past 10 years. I would probably change my position to antitheist or otherwise become a Satanist and join other like-minded rebels in attempting to kill god in the physical sense. This kind of motivation is one of the reasons I enjoy anime (and video games) with themes of killing god such as Angel Beats and Devil Survivor.
I appreciate your honesty and I believe you. I wonder, though, how many atheists who think that way would do the same if actually confronted by God. The Bible makes clear that everyone who came into contact with Jesus was somehow moved by Him, though certainly some, like the Pharisees, were moved into a direction the opposite of worship.
Your claim, I’m sure, would be that Christians are confronted with evidence to the contrary and still stick to their ideas.
It’s not the unbeliever that has to worry about being confronted by god, but god being confronted by us for his crimes against humanity.
“A person is never truly dead so long as their name is spoken”
Basically, if you stop talking about god then he/she/it loses all power and dies.
Solipism is an interesting philosophy, though I obviously disagree. I believe in a God that has always existed – His existence does not depend on humanity, but rather the other way around.
Thanks for the comment!
Booooo…..
….Hooo?
Let me start by saying I do not believe in the existence of gods. However, if the Christian God does exist, and is everything the Bible claims, he CANNOT die. That which is eternal is beyond death. As for Jesus, he is not God. He is ‘a man born in the manner of men’. “Thou shalt have no gods before me.” and “Thou shalt make unto thy self no graven image.” Remember these? When you worship an image of Jesus and call him God, you are breaking both commandments.Your God would not be pleased.
Thanks for the comment, though we obviously disagree about the Trinity and God as three persons.
The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Three individual God forms. So Christians are closet polytheists?
Thanks for the comments, but I’ll stop here. I never get into debates on this site – there are plenty of avenues, thousands, across in the Internet for that. But thank you for stumbling onto the site.
If you want to truly discuss why we believe what we believe, out of a real sense of trying to learn more about Christianity, let me know. Otherwise, I still thank you for your curiosity. Take care! 🙂
Actually I’m not looking for a debate. I’m making observations and pointing out flaws and inconsistencies. I’ve no interest in learning more about Christianity. I’ve been studying it for 26 years. It is likely I know more about your religion than you do. I am neither trying to offend, no argue. I’m simply pointing out that religion is full of holes.
Thanks for your insight, although I think it’s unfair to call us less knowledgeable about our religion than you, which is maybe a generalization based on culture rather than on any time spent interacting with us. Our writers all take our faiths seriously and spend time questioning, contemplating, and thinking about why we believe what we believe. We don’t “tow” the company line, believing in God out of ignorance. In fact, our writers are well-educated and include at least a couple I would call far more liberal in their faith than I, another who has a PhD in the sciences, one who is studying at Tokyo University, and myself – I was previously an agnostic and atheist who spent years contemplating religion.
As for your arguments and points, I don’t intend to continue the conversation here in the comments. This is not a place to debate, argue, or make light of one’s religion (or lack thereof). Part of the atmosphere of Beneath the Tangles is to engage each other with civility and kindness. However, if you would like to continue our conversation, please email me personally (beneath.the.tangles@gmail.com). Otherwise, please consider the conversation on this topic over.
Hi! I am a Christian who has spent the past 25+ years immersed in study of comparative religion and theology, loves movies like Princess Mononoke, and has even developed a series of characters interwoven into a story that contains the killing of false gods. I fell upon this blog doing research for this very book. The idea of rebelling against any gods, for whatever reason, to whatever end, is a very compelling one. Entire tomes can be written about how certain gods can bleed and die, whether they are actually spirit or flesh, and where they actually come from. From extra-terrestrials to fallen angels, and the people they subjugate for one reason or another…and the ones with the spirit and drive to rise up and challenge said beings. This is the course that any creature with a questioning nature would follow…any being that is told to obey whilst the gods seek their own pleasure, much like the Greek gods. The one that rises up to destroy any leader/prophet/god/tyrant must face the reality that he himself may have to take the place of what he has thrown down…that he himself may become subject to the followers and worshipers he sought to free. In his search for truth, he may find that the truth isn’t what he wanted or desired. Especially when he comes up against a god that cannot be beaten or killed…one that cannot fall…like the one true God of Israel. After all, how does one defeat an entity that gives itself to it’s own creation to be killed…and therein sanctifies and purifies it’s kingdom? The journey toward truth by defeating any and all gods would eventually come to an end at the feet of the One that has no end, the One who’s strength is in weakness and who’s kingdom is within the living creatures it both serves and rules.
An interesting concept that is visited in many anime shows and movies, sometimes misguided and self-defeating, but enjoyable and thought-provoking nonetheless. I am glad I came across this blog, and was able to read the comments. It’s the first blog I have actually come across that looks at the subject with respect and openness to others and their thoughts and beliefs…without the flaming and name-calling. The endless argument gets really old after awhile, especially when it turns into a war of words that avails nothing to no one. Kudos to you and Beneath the Tangles. 🙂
Thank you so much, both for the kind words about our blog and for the really interesting commentary on rebellion against gods. Certainly let us know know when your book is published, and God bless!
Are you kidding me. What the hell is the matter with all of these brainwashed jesus idiots? Your god kills babys. Yet he wants people protesting abortion clinics? Your god contradicts himself constantly don’t believe me check out evilbible.com . You’re so quick to give god all the glory yet never any blame. If he’s everything he and his believers say he is then start asking him the tough questions for once. Stop making excuses for all the horrible things that have and will happen. Ask him about why he let innocent people go to concentration camps ask him.
I’m sorry that you feel that way toward Christians. I think that, and probably because of what people have done in the name of Christianity, you have skewed idea of what Christianity is all about. It’s not about protesting abortion clinics and it’s not about being brainwashed and not questioning the Bible. That’s a blind and damaging faith, and one that’s likely not to be genuine or sincere.
I’ll talk about concentration camps, though. I coordinate a government agency that deals with the topic of genocide and the Holocaust, so I’m definitely familiar with the evils that went on during that time. It reveals the evil of our hearts, the evil that lurks in any of us. German people were not inherently more awful than the French, Americans, or any other nationality of people. We all have the capacity to inflict great evil upon one another, and it is we who have to take responsibility for our choices, rather than blaming God for them.
We don’t use this forum for debate, Scott, but if you want to have a healthy discussion over what I feel are misconceptions you have or what problems you have with Christians, I invite it. Take care!
God killed the Pharohs 1st born did he not? God hardened the Pharohs heart wheres the “free will” in that then he killed Egypts 1st born. Were all of the 1st born evil? God told the Jews to make war on the Midinites. When the warriors came back Mosses was angry because they showed mercy and didn’t kill the children and the pregnant women very prolife of god don’t you think? Mosses didn’t want them to kill the young girls who haven’t been with a man so they could multiply. These virgins got raped at gods command. It was forbiden to marry Midinites and one Jewish man was speared through his gentitles for it. This is just one example of gods cruelty and contradictive nature. Christians seem to over look these things or sugar coat them away. If christians want to propagate this religion then I being a man with a conscience have a duty to point these things out. I am sorry about the mispellings Im sure there are more than a few, but none the less, these are my thoughts.
Thanks for the civil response.
With the exception of Pharaoh and free will, which from my limited knowledge of Hebrew should be chalked up to figurative speech and idiomatic expressions, the stories you bring up are all legitimate concerns that Christians should think about and struggle with. A number of these are stories that I’ve tangled with personally for years.
Without going into too much detail, and without “preaching from on high,” for my theological understanding is woefully inept, I should say that we have to be very careful how we read the Bible. Christians and non-Christians alike read verses at face-value without the necessary context – historical, spiritual, cultural, and otherwise. We also have to separate what God commanded, what God desired, and what the Israelites of their own volition, which is immediately what I think about when we’re talking of the Midianites.
The complexity of the Bible is immense and even Old Testament history of the conquering of the Canaan would take a lifetime to explore and explain. This is not to excuse the Christian God – He must be investigated if we’re to truly trust in him. And it’s not to excuse the Christian, who should think with head knowledge as he or she develops a relationship with Christ.
Thank you for bringing up these topics and examples, as they are very significant. And no need for apologies, as spelling is hardly of any significance when we’re talking about spiritual truths and falsehoods.
Thank you for your honest and thoughtful response.
It’s amazing how many people will go out of their way to attack what we believe. Surely it would be less time consuming to glance at the article, realize you disagree, and click off, but something compels individuals to go that extra mile and comment. I doubt they really expect their comments to change the beliefs of the people on this blog (unless our beliefs are paper thin). At that point, it really only comes down to one possibility:
“You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.” – Matthew 10:22, NIV
I won’t claim to be the strongest, most devout Christian; in fact, I’d go in the opposite direction. I’m weak, I struggle, and more often than not I doubt myself, but when I look at Jesus’ words there, and then look at how we’re treated now, I see fulfillment of His words. If atheists really wanted to mess with us, they’d leave us alone, and some do, but others seem to devote their lives to attacking God (see: Richard Dawkins). It’s interesting that people would devote so much time to something they don’t believe in. It’s almost like they’re the fulfillment of prophecy… oh hey!
I also have to shake my head at the assumption that we’re all uneducated morons who know nothing about our own faith. I don’t know how pervasive this opinion is, but those who hold to it should really take the time to investigate the field of Christian apologetics before making assumptions about what we do/don’t know. Some Christians may be better educated than others, sure, but that doesn’t mean we’re idiots, and it doesn’t mean we haven’t researched our faith. On the contrary, we probably believe more sincerely because we’ve delved deeper and done the research.
Anyway, just some thoughts from the peanut gallery. I guess I should steel myself for the day things like this come my way. Keep up the good work, Charles!
Im glad you read my thoughts please read my other reply as well. If chritians go out of there way to propagate their beliefs I have no choice but to attack with logic. You believe your god is all knowing, powerful, merciful, and omnipresent don’t you? If that is true then please explain how he could stand there and do nothing as children were herded into concentration camps? You will surely answer it was men that did that. Did God harden the Pharohs heart? Couldn’t he also soften a persons heart couldn’t he have done that to a nazis, or any present day person wanting to harm another? Have you read the story of the good samaritin? Was god at the train stations or not? Did he step in or not? You see the falicy, the contradiction? If you or I lived in that time and did nothing wouldn’t we be as guilty as the people perpetrating the acts. What did your god do?? These are the logical questions a person should demand an answer for especially if they’re asked to surrender their life to him, don’t you think?
These are very important questions. I do think that one major area that is missed by non-Christians (and it’s one that I couldn’t blame them for missing) is the idea of what sin is and why it’s significant. I actually discussed this a bit a couple of weeks ago in one of my Noragami articles. If we understand our condition and what it means, we better understand who God is and why grace is so valuable.
Part of God’s love is in giving us free will (as I mentioned earlier, “hardening a heart” in Exodus makes perfect sense only when we take into account the Hebrew language, the use of idiomatic expressions, the various uses of that phrasing in the text, and other consistent expressions of God’s character). What we’ve chosen to do with it demonstrates our evil condition and how much we need love, particularly as shown through grace – a lot we don’t deserve. The enormity of the evil in Nazism is incomprehensible – I’m friends with several Holocaust survivors, as well as those of the Cambodian and Central African genocides, and I’m overwhelmed by their stories, which are just a handful among many millions – and they display the depths of our need. When we act on our own, we’re capable of great horrors (though some stood up – an unfortunate few, in the end). This is why in my own life, I see the beauty of both God’s freedom to let us choose our own way and the freedom that he offers from sin.
Thanks again for the comments – you’ll forgive me, I’m sure, if I add no further responses to avoid a protracted debate or a flame war from breaking out among the readers. Feel free to email me (beneaththetangles AT gmail.com) or contact me through messaging on Tumblr (thetangles) if you’d like to chat further.
I am thankful for your last response although it merely points a finger at man. I’ll give that men make mistakes, but maybe God hardened the nazis hearts like he did Pharoh, you have to admit that is a possibility. If that is the case then you are serving an ugly and cruel god.
Do you mind if I take a stab at providing some answers? I was mulling this over in my mind earlier today. If not, it’s okay, as I understand that you don’t want this to turn into a lengthy debate, so I thought it best to ask before I post my thoughts.
That was supposed to be a reply to TWWK. I thought it would post under his comment. Apparently not.
Rob, I’d rather you not. Defense of the faith is very important, but as for this blog, it’s always been critical for me to stay away from debate, as I think it harms the open atmosphere I’ve tried to develop here and leads most, if not all, commentators no closer to spiritual truths (a prime goal of my efforts) and instead, perhaps adds more fuel to the fire driving those who don’t believe in Christianity. You’re certainly welcome to continue the discussion on your own blog or another forum, and ping this post or add a comment with a link to your own post.
Thanks for understanding, man!
Per Scott’s request, I’ll change my mind. Go for it.
If you’re cool with it, then I’ll go ahead and share my thoughts–probably some time this evening. I like the idea of being able to share what I have to say, but I don’t want to do something that you’d prefer I didn’t; there’s no point in damaging our friendship (is that the right word since we’ve only interacted online?) just so I can say what I have to say. My post won’t be harsh like my last one kind of was, though.
Did you ever get my email with the short bio, btw?
Haha, don’t worry about it, Rob. And yes, we’re definitely friends.
I did get your bio, but did you want to revise the article one more time before I post it, since it’s now no longer for a current series?
I wish you would let Rob make a defense of his faith I encourage any one to try, but it is your place and it is your rules. I’ll respect that. I do like anime and I am very close to Nahzul his work can be found on youtube.
If Charles is cool with it, then I’ll try to post my thoughts some time this evening. I have a lot that I can say, so it might be a long one. Out of respect for Charles, though, I’ll ask that we try to find a breaking point somewhere, simply because this is one of those things that we could debate back and forth forever.
I’ll close the conversation when I deem it necessary.
Yes this is a debatable subject, but so was the concept of a flat earth for centuries until logic prevailed. Your god can produce miracles right? If so talk to him and ask for a undeniable miracle. It should be a relatively simple request being all mighty and all? If he’s to busy for that a simple sign will do. If that’s a no can do, your thoughts need to be well thought out and planed carefully. Please refrain from circular logic by merely pointing back to your bible. A person that believes in fairy tales can do the same.
So Rob nothing to say? I’ve waited 2 days for a response and you said “I have a lot that I can say” maybe you’ve taken a closer look at your beliefs and found them as flawed as I have. Here’s another little thought for you to think about, has god ever answered even a single prayer you have made? I know the a typical Christian response “god says yes, no, or wait”. Really is that the best cover story believers can post for their god? I think if you’re talking about a “supreme being” such as, let me clear my throat uh uh, god then you shouldn’t even need to answer that little thought because the proof should be evidenced all throughout your life by answered prayer because “God so loved the world”. You could talk about the previous bible quote also but, sad to say, in reality all you would have to do is look around and see quite the opposite. Let’s be honest with ourselves there seems to be no proof of either gods love or answered prayer in your life. Why serve a useless god? So do these thoughts bother you do my rational statements of observation serve to make you grow closer to god, as Christians like to say, or do they wake you up? I’ll be waiting a response from anyone, full of personal conviction.
Scott, thank you for coming to the blog and opening up discussion here. As I mentioned before, I want to avoid both debate (there are a thousand avenues on the Internet for that) and personal attacks, and commentary is now going down both paths. I’ll end the discussion with a short response to your question here. Rob, who is never short of words or on his defense of the faith, might be certainly willing to respond to you through email, his Twitter account, or his review blog, which is linked through his comments.
Very briefly, I think it’s a falsehood to claim that there’s no evidence for the power of prayer. Certainly, all believers can point to multiple points in their lives where they saw the intersection of prayer and the demonstration of God’s love and power in their lives. I won’t say it’s irrefutable evidence of God’s existence and ability to work through prayer – as much as I believe in Him – but I will say that it’s wrong to discount personal experiences without considering their validity, whether those from a Christian or from any other religion (or lack thereof).
Secondly, you speak of God’s love for the world, but as always, context and accuracy are of prime importance when it comes to scripture. We always have to take into account what love means according to God v. according to your definition – a biblical definition of love includes the freedom given us to make our own decisions, right or wrong, and a merciful way to make the decision to be with God and enjoy freedom for enslavement to sin, v. a “perfect world” according to man, which would only be possibly by infringement upon our free will.
Thanks, again, for your comments. And although I’ve closed this debate before it became too hairy, I encourage you to contact myself or Rob if you’d like, and to continue to read along, though certainly in the future I’ll be consistent with my own rules and stop or omit any commentary that leads down a path of debate, which again has it’s own place – and a very important one – but not here on this little blog.
Ok this is a forum for christians I will respect that. You can give Rob my email if he wants to reply still. I don’t expect a reply though. Quite frankly there simply isn’t a meaningful reply to give even when it’s wrapped in circular logic with a pretty bow.
Actually, I have a reply for you–about 5 pages total, in fact. I just haven’t linked it yet. I plan to upload it to Google docs and share a link for you. Beyond that, we will leave this from further discussion on Charles’ site.
And here you go, my response, if you choose to read it:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4W-tYB2cDtdaXVoV0Nab0J0MUE/edit?usp=sharing
From here on, I’m done with this discussion, as well. If you ever want to explore Christianity with a truly open mind, then we can talk. I’ve spent enough time in the past getting too caught up in Internet fights, to the point that I just couldn’t wait to get home because I just had to see what the other person said. Now that I have a smartphone, the temptation is there even when I’m out and about. Rather than let myself get sucked in to such a situation, I’m simply going to behead the beast now.
I hope, at the very least, you will take the time to read that, since I took the time to type it, and maybe give it just a few moments of open-minded though.
I’ve read your reply and it uses speculation and circular logic. I was hoping you could defend god or explain his actions or lack there of without referring back to your bible. You couldn’t do that. Do you understand that saying something is an absolute truth without an examination of the facts is what ever cult does it’s called brainwashing.
Thanks for taking the time to read it. I’m sorry it wasn’t what you were looking for. I hope you’ll at least consider checking out the materials I linked at the bottom. Those men are much smarter and more educated than I. Have a good day, God bless, and I hope things are/will be okay with your wife.
Thanks
Sorry about replying through the forum Im in the hospital with my wife currently and I just hsve my cell phone.